Thank you very much; it’s fascinating. One question that springs to mind: are we sure we are transliterating the Pictish ogham inscriptions correctly ? How do we know the symbols had the same sound as in Ireland ? Especially if the languages in Ireland and spoken by the Picts are not similar. Isn’t it possible that the Picts borrowed the idea of ogham for their own writing system but attributed different sounds to the symbols. Even if the sounds are generally similar for ogham inscriptions in Ireland and those used by the Picts, it is possible that some are different if the languages are not similar. It’s not exactly analogous but look at the similarities and differences in the use of letters between the Greek and Latin or Greek and Cyrillic alphabets (albeit with Glagolitic intervening in the latter case).
There are two Pictish inscriptions that use Roman characters and several of the names in the Pictish ogham inscriptions are also found in sources like the Pictish king-list. There seems to be a one-to-one correlation with Irish uses, although some of the values appear to change a bit over time (just as they do in Irish use).
Many thanks, this is fascinating, as always. My comment is probably very irrelevant, but it keeps coming back in my head, so here it is. When I read Nahhtvvddadd, I can't help read a nativitatis behind it. Which sounds odd, but given the presence of crosc, could it be a nativity cross?
They are certainly similar in that natividad begins with a root nat- 'birth', is enlarged by -ivi and then -dad, but -dad is an abstract suffix and you wouldn't expect a name to be formed from an abstract noun. Something more like Spanish dado 'given' would make sense; cf. a name like Greek Herodotus, literally 'Hera-given'.
I know a bit about Wilson and Beaumont, but they are a bit radical. Thanks for the reference to the O'Bernicia blog. Some of my favourite historians are/were Geordies.
Many thanks, this is fascinating, as always. My comment is probably very irrelevant, but it keeps coming back in my head, so here it is. When I read Nahhtvvddadd, I can't help read a nativitatis behind it. Which sounds odd, but given the presence of crosc, could it be a nativity cross?
We know a fair bit about the writing system because it was developed originally to write Irish names on tombstones. The punctuation looks odd, but you get the same thing in runic inscriptions.
Thank you very much; it’s fascinating. One question that springs to mind: are we sure we are transliterating the Pictish ogham inscriptions correctly ? How do we know the symbols had the same sound as in Ireland ? Especially if the languages in Ireland and spoken by the Picts are not similar. Isn’t it possible that the Picts borrowed the idea of ogham for their own writing system but attributed different sounds to the symbols. Even if the sounds are generally similar for ogham inscriptions in Ireland and those used by the Picts, it is possible that some are different if the languages are not similar. It’s not exactly analogous but look at the similarities and differences in the use of letters between the Greek and Latin or Greek and Cyrillic alphabets (albeit with Glagolitic intervening in the latter case).
There are two Pictish inscriptions that use Roman characters and several of the names in the Pictish ogham inscriptions are also found in sources like the Pictish king-list. There seems to be a one-to-one correlation with Irish uses, although some of the values appear to change a bit over time (just as they do in Irish use).
Many thanks, this is fascinating, as always. My comment is probably very irrelevant, but it keeps coming back in my head, so here it is. When I read Nahhtvvddadd, I can't help read a nativitatis behind it. Which sounds odd, but given the presence of crosc, could it be a nativity cross?
Aren't nativity crosses a fairly recent development?
yes probably... It was just something that jumped to my eyes, but indeed probably irrelevant. I wonder how much Latin was known up there anyway...
Fascinating! Thanks for sharing this!
Nahhtvvddadds looks and possibly sounds a lot like natividad or other similars from the Latin root. Would that make any sense?
They are certainly similar in that natividad begins with a root nat- 'birth', is enlarged by -ivi and then -dad, but -dad is an abstract suffix and you wouldn't expect a name to be formed from an abstract noun. Something more like Spanish dado 'given' would make sense; cf. a name like Greek Herodotus, literally 'Hera-given'.
Are you familiar with the works of Welsh historian Alan Wilson and Comyns Beaumont.
My Geordie pal has a great historical section on his blog that you may be interested in regarding the British isles.
https://www.thebernician.net/historical/
I know a bit about Wilson and Beaumont, but they are a bit radical. Thanks for the reference to the O'Bernicia blog. Some of my favourite historians are/were Geordies.
Many thanks, this is fascinating, as always. My comment is probably very irrelevant, but it keeps coming back in my head, so here it is. When I read Nahhtvvddadd, I can't help read a nativitatis behind it. Which sounds odd, but given the presence of crosc, could it be a nativity cross?
We know a fair bit about the writing system because it was developed originally to write Irish names on tombstones. The punctuation looks odd, but you get the same thing in runic inscriptions.